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Submitted by joshua on Tue, 2006-07-11 00:09. The Underlying Premise

Michael,

I think the premise for the economic domain is basically correct. I also think that the concept of 'closed loop sytems', although mentioned in the material domain, needs to be woven back into the economic domain both in the premise and the operational implications.

The premise could mention that the earth is a closed system and that our current economic perspective operates as if we have unlimited resources despite mounting evidence to the contrary.

The operational implications could identify the need to transition from living off our savings account ( fossil fuels and ancient aquafers etc.) to living off our income account.

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Spaceship Earth: An Open System

Submitted by portlandio on Wed, 2006-07-12 23:15.

I'm not into sponsoring this economists' "dismal science" meme, which pretends the 2nd law means ever worsening conditions aboard Spaceship Earth. That's not trully physics and is more about artificially lowering expectations as a part of a long-running propaganda campaign.[more]

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This is certainly not meant

Submitted by Michael Ben-Eli on Sun, 2006-07-16 12:09.

This is certainly not meant or suggested. Recognizing the second law as an important constraint is not meant to imply the neccessity of worsening conditions. Quite to the contrary. It is an essential realization in approaching designs for "everlasting" improvements...

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the question of lifestyle

Submitted by misskitten on Wed, 2006-07-12 17:44.

i also think that we should be careful when detaching the "material" from the "economy". i think that another issue is of the "lifestyle" which is a motor that moves both the economy and the material. but maybe it is in the social domain - it IS a bit difficult to think in terms of these issues as separate categories...

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Economic Domain - Suggestion

Submitted by volzola on Wed, 2006-07-12 16:37.

Economies consist of transactions where markets occur?

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Closed systems. Not exactly...

Submitted by gfriend on Tue, 2006-07-11 20:11.

The earth _is_ a closed system with regard to matter, and an _open_ system with regard to energy. This is key. The flow (and degradation) of off-planet energy through the closed-to-matter earth system is what powers the neg-entropic "quality machine" (with photosynthesis as its fundament). As I read 2d law (thank you Dr Robert), it cannot be otherwise: closed system tends to run to disorder, ABSENT an external energy pump. Here the pump is solar. (And intellectual, which is of course solar powered too. ;-)

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Closed systems.... not exactly

Submitted by joshua on Wed, 2006-07-12 08:03.

Great clarification Gil! I will be more rigorous when refering to the part of the earth system that is closed. I guess even with regard to matter the earth is only approximately closed... since we do receive star dust and meteorites which I believe some say may have transported the 1st buckyball.

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There is clearly a

Submitted by Michael Ben-Eli on Tue, 2006-07-11 11:07.

There is clearly a fundamental overlap between the "material" and the economic domain. In making the distinction between the domains, I tried to differentiate between the "material" domain whic is subjects to the laws of physics, and the economic domain seen as the framework which drive value and transaction decision and that is more amenable to shaping by human concepts and design.

Third bullets of the operational implication in the Material Domain alludes to your point about living off our savings account.

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