Sustainability Principles Online Dialogue

OK. I will continue the ball rolling. You idea of how things are to be managed “anarcho-syndicalism” has already had its day and fell flat. It always is the case that some leader, and there is always is a leader, who wants to tell others what to do and how to do it. Trade unions are no different from any other dictatorship. Democracy, a disguised dictatioship, is the bull being lead around by the nose. A committee never makes a decision. Someone on the committee makes a decision and convinces everyone else to go along with him/her. How then is anarcho-syndicalism any different? It is not. It results in the same end. Someone convinces others to go along with there idea until they can get power to force their will. There are few leaders worthy of following. Even Bucky had his defects. People vote someone and not for someone. Like the fellow told me a long time ago. “I vote for him because I know what kind of crook he is and I don’t know about the other fellow”
Are you campaigning for the job? I am not. I don’t know enough to lead anyone but myself. Is this cynical enough for you?
Leadership needs pure in heart people with the moral character beyond the average, “what’s in it for me” attitude. Where are such leaders to be found?

Is not the form of Government a means to an end? Does not democracy offer the best means to effect change while inherently building consensus?

I'm quite new to this discussion and have not read much of the material, though I have a fair background in sustainable systems. However, I'm not familiar with anarcho-syndicalism. Could you discuss it please? I've always felt that democracy, while inherently beneficial, is tragically flawed in its current form in much the same way that socialism has been repeatedly perverted. As in all things, let us not throw the baby out with the bath water.

pdoss-smith

I'm quite new to this discussion and have not read much of the material, though I have a fair background in sustainable systems. However, I'm not familiar with anarcho-syndicalism. Could you discuss it please? I've always felt that democracy, while inherently beneficial, is tragically flawed in its current form in much the same way that socialism has been repeatedly perverted. As in all things, let us not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Actually, I was being partly facetious about anarch-syndicalism (should have use the ol' emoticon! ;-), but I think discussing the current state of democracy is probably worthwhile - you are certainly right about the tragic flaws in the democratic model and the way that it has become synonymous with global capitalism/corporate statism. Why does GWB want to spread "freedom and democracy" throughout the world? Because corporations need stable business environments with centralized governments.

Anarcho-syndicalism is a wing of anarchist theory based on decentralized ownership of production in which workers are self-managing,based on the trade union model. I guess in reality is more like a "true democracy" in which capitalism and statism are replaced with equity and personal responsibility. Sounds good, right? How would we get there from here? I don't really have a clue! I think though, looking at the open source software movement, creative commons licensing etc might give some clues - Brazil embraces elements of the concept.....

Bucky wrote _No More Second Hand God_ in 1940 just afer the fall of Oslo. In it he talks about Democracy.

"Devise a mechanical means
for nation-wide voting
daily and secretly
by each adult citizen
of Uncle Sam's family:
Then- I assure you
will Democracy "be saved,"
indeed exist,
for the first time in history."

He says it is a simple mechanical problem. I wonder if there is a prototype voting website yet. I won't be surprised. If I search and find something, I'll report back.

You might find this interesting:

http://smartocracy.org/

"Smartocracy is an experiment in "augmented democracy", a meritocratic social network for collective decision-making. Each participant gets 10 votes to give away, and gets to exercise those votes given to them."

Just a very brief comment here. I used the term "democracy" as a code word for an open system ("open society" in the sense of Popper) where decisions are made in processes that are transparent, inclusive, participatory, and plural. That democracy itself, its structure and processes can be improved upon, goes without saying.

Michael -

I appreciate your sentiment but I'm not sure that, at this point in history, "That democracy itself, its structure and processes can be improved upon" does in fact go without saying. I respectfully submit that the very structure of democracy needs to be focused on in order that sustainability goals can be furthered. No meaningful progress can be made in the current world political climate. I guess it's sort of a chicken/egg deal...

yeah, a lot of people have suggested that we have the technology to make representative democracy obsolete. But how do we get rid of the obsolete system? The corporations that own our so-called "representatives" ain't gonna cotton to the idea ...

on the other hand, to we really want to be subject to "the tyranny of the masses"?

Have a friend who tells me tea cup with handle no good something wrong.So what they do in Japan to avoid burning?Response,just talk and wait for tea to cool.

How does it go in Critical Path.My remembered understanding runs something like this.Upon completion of a world electrical grid the general sustainable ( relatively unproblematic to all future life )energy now distributed obsoletes nation state borders and ergo disparities ergo multi nations ergo multinational corpororations whose basic alligator bait driven psychopathy is preponderantly non human and auotomated.Voila,automated devolution of stock ownership to the folks who all get a life and stop jobs just to stay alive.
In a Commonwealth Democracy these folks is us just for starters. Now having the wealth and means to actually address real problems with real solutions instead of turning them into issues political middlemen can now also get a life and go back an interest in engineering etc..

(Upon further thought)... obsoletes disparities then borders..